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Post by The Irish Jacobite on Oct 2, 2015 21:05:17 GMT -5
I really like Roslin too. Aegon is also pretty cool.
Also, what is your opinion of the thing with Rhaegar and Lyanna; kidnapping or elopement? I say kidnapping.
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Post by Defender of the Faith on Oct 2, 2015 21:27:52 GMT -5
Please... kidnapping her would be totally out of character for Rhaegar. 100% sure it was elopement. She already didn't want to marry Robert Baratheon, the story that he kidnapped he was an over reaction by the Starks that fit with Robert Baratheon's ego and was then spread to besmirch Rhaegar's good name. Also, kidnapping Lyanna would be roughly akin to suicide. Between Lyanna's will/temper and Rhaegar's Chivilry, nothing happened in the Tower of Joy if Lyanna wasn't willing. Ser Barristan Selmy states that "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna" and also thinks that Rhaegar would have been better then any of the Kings (or Queens) he has served. Would Barristan admire a rapist bridenapper? I seriously doubt it. Daenerys is also often compared to Rhaegar, as a compliment. If Rhaegar was the monster that the Usuper makes him out to be, why would his name be used as a compliment? It's a pity Rhaegar didn't put a sword through the Usurper's heart at the Trident, the Seven Kingdoms would have been the better for it.
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Post by Defender of the Faith on Oct 2, 2015 21:30:31 GMT -5
Also, I forget to mention Willas and Garlan Tyrell in my list of favorite characters. The elder two of the Tyrell brothers are great, although I can't say the same for Loras.
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Post by The Irish Jacobite on Oct 2, 2015 21:56:39 GMT -5
But what about Aerys II? Wouldn't the war be justified by tyrannicide? Even if Rhaegar was not such a bad guy, his father was a monster. Also, the war would not have happened if they had told everyone the truth. And Rhaegar is committing adultery, unless he wanted to have a polygamous marriage like Aegon the conqueror did.
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Post by Defender of the Faith on Oct 2, 2015 22:20:42 GMT -5
1. It wasn't a rebellion against Aerys, it was a rebellion against House Targaryen. 2. Killing Aerys would be justified by Tyrannicide, turning on the entire House of Targaryen would not be. 3. Tyrannicide would also be justified in the case of "King" Robert Baratheon. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "Tyrannicide literally is the killing of a tyrant, and usually is taken to mean the killing of a tyrant by a private person for the common good. There are two classes of tyrants whose circumstances are widely apart — tyrants by usurpation and tyrants by oppression. A tyrant by usurpation (tyrannus in titula) is one who unjustly displaces or attempts to displace the legitimate supreme ruler, and he can be considered in the act of usurpation or in subsequent peaceful possession of the supreme power. A tyrant by oppression (tyrannus in regimine) is a supreme ruler who uses his power arbitrarily and oppressively. While actually attacking the powers that be, a tyrant by usurpation is a traitor acting against the common weal, and, like any other criminal, may be put to death by legitimate authority. If possible, the legitimate authority must use the ordinary forms of law in condemning the tyrant to death, but if this is not possible, it can proceed informally and grant individuals a mandate to inflict the capital punishment. St. Thomas , Suarez , and the majority of authorized theologians say that private individuals have a tacit mandate from legitimate authority to kill the usurper when no other means of ridding the community of the tyrant are available." The full text can be seen here: www.newadvent.org/cathen/15108a.htm3. I am inclined to believe that Rhaegar would have married her. Even if he didn't, it's hardly an argument given Robert's long string of adulterous behavior. 4. The War would not have happened if Brandon Stark had not lost his good sense and rode off the the Red Keep and told Rhaegar to "Come out and die" (Which is funny, since Rhaegar wasn't even there.) Altough I don't approve of the execution of either Rickon or Brandon or the manner of their executions, it is important to remember that Brandon did commit treason by threatening the life of Prince Rhaegar. 5. Another issue with the War of the Usurper is that it set a precedent for the future. I can hardly blame Renly for rising against Stannis. After all, he was just following in Robert's footsteps. The rationale behind both is that you can declare yourself king as long as you think you would be the better king, regardless of your actual claim.
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Post by The Irish Jacobite on Oct 2, 2015 22:40:50 GMT -5
Robert was fornicating at that point. Obviously I don't endorse his immoral behavior. Robert was a bad king, I don't think he was tyrant though.
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Post by Defender of the Faith on Oct 3, 2015 7:52:59 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Robert was a tyrant by oppression, but he was a tyrant by usurpation. As I quoted above:
"There are two classes of tyrants whose circumstances are widely apart — tyrants by usurpation and tyrants by oppression. A tyrant by usurpation (tyrannus in titula) is one who unjustly displaces or attempts to displace the legitimate supreme ruler, and he can be considered in the act of usurpation or in subsequent peaceful possession of the supreme power. A tyrant by oppression (tyrannus in regimine) is a supreme ruler who uses his power arbitrarily and oppressively."
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Post by Defender of the Faith on Oct 3, 2015 8:35:20 GMT -5
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Post by The Irish Jacobite on Oct 7, 2015 22:31:43 GMT -5
Okay, I understand, but this theory says that the different lords planned to replace Aerys with Rhaegar.
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Post by Defender of the Faith on Oct 8, 2015 8:28:13 GMT -5
Well, it's a possibility. Whatever Jon Arryn was planning, Robert ruined.
Another point; It's a bit unfair to go after Rhaegar for his Adultery/Polygamy(?). Robert Baratheon was an adulterer/fornicated on a massive scale, Renly was gay, Stannis committed adultery and Robb (albeit only once) committed fornication.
If you want to just go over general morals, Robert applauded the murder of children, planned to murder a pregnant women, was constantly drunk and committed treason to his king. Stannis had his own brother murdered, frequently burns people alive, considered murdering his nephew Edric Storm, participates in witchcraft and sorcery, joined Robert is his treason and depending on how you look at it, may have indirectly killed Robb Stark. Sexual morals aside, Renly is actually a better person than Stannis. Rhaegar did... none of the things that the brothers Baratheon did. There are some characters, such as Rhaegar Targaryen and Robb Stark, that are generally good people, with faults as opposed to Robert and Stannis Baratheon, who are bad people with some redeeming virtues.
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Post by The Irish Jacobite on Oct 9, 2015 19:21:21 GMT -5
I would not go so far as to say that Stannis is a bad guy, he's kind of a grey character. Yes, Stannis is a Kinslayer, but Renly was traitor, though I suppose that it would have more honorable to have challenged him to personal combat to decide who would be King, instead of having him killed with sorcery. But Renly might have been dishonorable and attacked Stannis anyway. As to the executions, (Ser Alester Florent, the cannibals,) they would been executed anyway but it was cruel to burn them alive, instead of giving them a painless death by beheading them. And Stannis is not committing adultery because of lust. It's more like, "Oh well, if will help me war then so be it."
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Post by Defender of the Faith on Oct 9, 2015 22:02:51 GMT -5
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Post by The Irish Jacobite on Oct 11, 2015 16:15:21 GMT -5
LOL.
Also, what is your opinion on the Wildlings, the White Walkers, and the Night's Watch.
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Post by Defender of the Faith on Oct 11, 2015 18:36:10 GMT -5
Wildings - What ever. Silly pleb barbarians with silly pleb customs who are good fighters.
White Walkers - Is there really an opinion on these? Kill them all.
Night's Watch - If they spent less time hunting Wildings and more time worrying about grumpkins and snarks, Westeros would not be in such a mess.
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Post by Defender of the Faith on Oct 11, 2015 18:41:33 GMT -5
To be honest I would have supported Renly over Stannis. Although that would probably be a, hehehe, temporary thing. I would do things House Darry style, hanging Targaryen tapestries on the walls and such.
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